PRT Guys Talk Trash About Rep. Tim Walz

In the aftermath of the failure to obtain a $25 million earmark for a pod facility in Winona, CPRT member and PRT consultant Dick Gronning had this to say about Congressman Tim Walz at the Transport Innovators forum:

It may be a DEM - REP thing. The democrats have been lobbied to death by the LRT folks. Our CPRT group did informational lobbying a few years back. The republicans would hear us out, but the democrats would either not see us, or show us glazed-over eyes. "That's REAL nice!" And, out-a here.

I doubt if he even knows what PRT stands for let alone what it looks like. Things ARE changing, but maybe not where this guy comes from. It IS true that SWE/T2C made the first bid on the project. The mayor is enamored with T2C. The idea behind the effort is to prove a Minnesota-based system. He doesn't get that either.

Dick

Others joined in the Walz-bashing... TriTrack "inventor" Jerry Roane:

Jerry

Notice he is not even asking for the funding but is personally standing in the way. How much does it cost him to ask the question? I did not have the time to submit TriTrack to Minn. I have enough snakes to kill around here but perhaps I should have submitted something to show support for my buds in Minn.

Jerry Roane

Skytrek "inventor" Jack Slade:

At a guess (scale of 1 to 10) he is almost up to 1....Jack Slade

Pod booster Walter Brewer:

How about minus 5?

Keep it KLASSY PRT Guys!

Time for a review....

No $25 million earmark for PRT pork project in Winona, Minnesota.

The ULTra PRT launch at Heathrow has been delayed at least 3 times.

The Swedish/Korean PRT prototype malfunctioned recently in front of the media.

The Masdar PRT (actually computer-guided golf carts that follow magnets imbedded in the roadway) has been scaled way back.

The much-hyped PRT project in Daventry ended in fiasco.

The so-called Morgantown PRT (it's a mundane people-mover) was the subject of a recent student newspaper editorial after a serious malfunction created a "fireball" and filled a vehicle with smoke.

Will Focus Shift to Reality-Based Transit in Winona?

Transit consultant Michael Setty in the Winona Daily News:

Michael D. Setty: PRT will ‘work,' but it won't be worth it

Larry Fabian of Boston is correct that personal rapid transit will technically "work," like the technologically clever Segway also "works." Segways were touted as a "transportation revolution" but to date have found only a few practical uses, such as tourist rentals and as a ride for security guards.

In 99 percent of the cases where PRT evangelists like Fabian think PRT is applicable, creative application of proven transit technologies will be far more economic, quicker to implement and attractive to would-be riders.

Consider the conceptual "Quality Bus" network proposed for Winona as an alternative to PRT in my December 2009 paper (available at www.publictransit.us/PRTDebunked1-WINONA.pdf).

A full PRT system serving Winona, realistically, would cost around $300 million to $400 million, plus conservatively costing $8 million to $11 million annually to operate - with an assumption very generous to PRT that it would attract around 4 million passengers annually.

In contrast, I estimated a quality bus network running every 10 to 15 minutes all day, built around proven transit planning principles, will cost about $35 million, plus about $3.4 million to $3.5 million annually to operate.

Conservatively, a quality bus network will attract 2 million to 3 million annual riders, assuming supporting parking and other policies at Winona State University and by the city.

I thought common sense and practicality were the hallmarks of being a Midwesterner.

So why have the parking problems at Winona State University continued to use up a lot of ink, unlike many Midwestern university towns where tighter parking rules and frequent, attractive transit networks have mitigated the issue?

Bloomington, Ind., Champaign-Urbana, Ill., Lafayette, Ind., Macomb, Ill., and many other communities have achieved balance between parking and attractive bus networks.

Certainly Winona can too - if there is a will while avoiding fanciful diversions such as PRT.

A comment:

The voice of reason has surfaced.

If it could only be heard by the narrow of mind who dreamed that this idea had any merit at all.

As we observed, Mall of America we are not! Where is our common sense?

Recall the days when we had bus routes?

PRT is so not happening in Minnesota.

Finally, The Truth About Personal Rapid Transit at Masdar

After hundreds of puff-pieces about the pods at Masdar The AE National admits the PRT is no big deal:

As part of the larger review of the city’s development strategy, Masdar executives have become increasingly doubtful that a fleet of futuristic electric “pod” cars would be able to serve the entire development on their own, said Alan Frost, the director of the city’s property development unit. The city’s planners are also working to adjust to anticipated delays in the emirate’s larger public transport system, over which they have no control.

The image of the “personal rapid transit” (PRT) system of automated electric cars that whisk residents and freight around the city had become a notable feature of Masdar City since the proposed development was unveiled to the public in January last year.

And although the pod cars are already running and will be in use when the Masdar Institute of Science and Technology opens in September, they may prove impractical for the larger city, Mr Frost said.

“If you say, ‘Do I think the PRT works on a city-scale?’ No, it doesn’t.”

The cars were still being evaluated for wider city use, he added.

The key issue was the pods’ magnetic routes, which limited future transport options. The pods use exclusive tracks that mean other electric vehicles would be excluded from the city, Mr Frost said. For short trips of a few hundred metres, Mr Frost said walking would be the biggest competing technology to the pod.

You can find Masdar puffery all over the web and it will stay there forever confusing and misleading the public about real transportation choices.

The Wikipedia page for Masdar:

Automobiles will be banned within the city; travel will be accomplished via public mass transit and personal rapid transit systems...

UPDATE:

The New York Times:

The PRT pods were all the rage as recently as January, when reporters converged on Masdar City for the World Future Energy Summit. Engineers showed off prototype pods, and visitors wondered at the air quality to be expected in a car-free metropolis.

But a few months later, Masdar officials took a step back from that promise. "We need to look at whether it works," said Fares Ghneim, Masdar's chief of communications, in a telephone interview.

Ghneim said London's Heathrow Airport uses a similar system but that one is limited to a narrow path. The scheme devised for Masdar was to run throughout the city, which is more complicated.

One limitation is that it prevents having anything else where the tracks run," Ghneim explained. If other vehicles ran on the PRT lane, they would obscure the magnets and confuse the guiding sensors. Also, he said, committing heavily to the PRT system might not make sense just as efficient new electric and hybrid vehicles are entering the marketplace.

For now, the PRT system is being implemented just around the Masdar Institute campus. The system is sure to draw interest and generate experience with the technology, but Ghneim admitted that within that limited area, walking might be just as effective a way to travel.

Although it won't happen, this phony-baloney video showing virtual pods whizzing around a virtual Masdar will stay on You Tube forever:

Transit Expert Comments on Vectus Pod Snafu

Michael Setty at Public Transit has this to say about the Vectus model PRT malfunctioning in front of reporters in February.

This embarrassing incident only goes to prove one of my predictions: the undue complexity of the Vectus guidance and switching mechanisms would lead to problems--and did.

Read the whole thing.

They're going to need taller ladders:



UPDATE:Michael Setty has a postscript:

Postscript: A PRT news website run by David Gow, the most vociferous, consistent critic of Avidor (every time Avidor posts something at http://prtboondoggle.blogspot.com/, usually within a day Gow has some sort of snarky reply to Avidor up at PRT is a Joke is a Joke), says that a Vectus spokesperson claims that a minor problem with the Vectus wireless communications system was the cause of the vehicle stalling on the track, as shown in the Swedish newspaper article and photograph. See http://sites.google.com/site/prtshtuffpage/swedish-prt-news/vectus-test-track-glitch-explained.

But this begs a question: what the heck was that person on the ladder looking at under the vehicle or on the guideway under the vehicle (an action not consistent with an electronics problem--presumably the electronics aren't at the same location as the vehicle undercarriage??)? Given our role as PRT skeptics, we're not taking Gow's word for this; rather, we see it perhaps as "something that goes 'bump' in the night" with some things we'll never know for sure, or at least, as outspoken PRT skeptics, we'll never be allowed to be privy to.

Exactly.

Vectus PRT - FAIL

It got stuck (in Swedish):

- Vi har testkört de här dagarna helt utan problem. Trots att vi har låtit det snöa igen helt och hållet på spåret har det ändå varit lätt att komma i gång, säger Jörgen Gustavsson.

Men när vi på torsdagen besöker den 400 meter långa testbanan vid Uppsala biomedicinska centrum i Uppsala går det inte lika smärtfritt.

- Stopp, stopp, stopp, stopp. Slå av limmarna, ropar Leif Åsberg, teknisk konsult, in till kontrollrummet.

Google English translation:

- We have test driven these days without any problems. Although we have let it snow again entirely on the track, it has nevertheless been easy to get started, "says Jörgen Gustavsson.

But when we're on Thursday the 400-meter long test track in Uppsala Biomedical Center in Uppsala, it is not as painless.

- Stop, stop, stop, stop. Turn off the glue and shout Leif Åsberg, technical consultant, into the control room.

I'm guessing "glue" isn't the right word.

- You can turn on the glue, otherwise it will be difficult, "says Leif Åsberg and begins to push the cart with all his body weight. Cart rolls off and accelerates to about 30 km / h but a hundred meters into the cart path stops again - "technical problems". Something that does not have the weather to do, declares Project Manager Marianne Ogéus.

- You should have come on Monday instead, then it was problem-free, "she says.

But 30 minutes and several attempts later, we simply leave the test track with its tail between his legs.

PRT & Stadiums - Boondoggle Buddies

UPDATE: Major league sports and pods cross paths yet again when CPRT board member Dick Gronning claims Vikings Football Hall of Famer Carl Eller said he was hoping to build a pod project in South Minneapolis.

This is a proposal for a combined PRT/Stadium boondoggle on the Minnesota Legislature website (PDF).

Minnesota has several choices regarding stadiums. We can do nothing. We can be among the last to build the “latest” generation of stadiums or we can be first to build the next generation of stadiums. We believe Minnesota should lead.

The technology that enables this leadership is Personal Rapid Transit. This technology is the lowest cost alternative of all potential transit solutions. It is flexible, fast, and rider-friendly. It can make a significant contribution to the economic success of stadia to which it is integrated. Placed in the right location, the inclusion of this technology is very low risk. For stadium economics, it can only help and can’t hurt.

Here's another proposal for a combined PRT & stadium boondoggle on the legislature's website(PDF):

Transit is critical to sports due the nature of large crowds coming and going simultaneously and in large groups. Transportation will depend on the integration of several modes. A true inter-modal transit system, to include automobile, conventional transit, PRT, and perhaps LRT, will be required. The Center for Transportation Studies at the University would lead and coordinate the efforts of the Department of Transportation and the Metropolitan Council to develop a transit model for this project.

Revealed - ULTra PRT's Dorky Golf Cart Wheels

The 30+ year story of PRT is a lot like the plot of the Mel Brooks movie "The Producers". In order for PRT do its job as a stalking horse for bashing rail transit, it cannot ever be built. The moment PRT attempts to leave the shiny, futuristic computer animations and attempts to become a real, live transportation system, its flaws become obvious... and with its little wheels that look like they came off of a golf cart, PRT looks downright dorky.



The dorky wheels that must be never be revealed:

We were just outside Boston, Massachusetts at the Raytheon world headquarters. Raytheon, a big producer of hi tech military weapons and air traffic control systems, was working on the PRT (Personal Rapid Transit) project. Several energetic images were needed to promote the new system worldwide, with instructions that we were not to reveal the rubber tires under the vehicle in any of the final photos.

In a recent BBC puff-piece about ULTra, we get a glimpse of the undercarriage of the glorified golf cart... and its dorky wheels:

Uppsala Green Party Backing Away From the Spårbilslobbyn (PRT Lobby)?

MP Maria Gardfjell (Google Translation):

There are many interesting opportunities with driverless rail cars. But when there are no practical tests in an urban environment, it is actually not possible in current situation to support a major expansion of the PRT in Uppsala. Therefore, the Green Party has taken the position that there are trams that must be the main effort in Uppsala.

ULTra PRT Heathrow Debut Delayed a Third Time?

UPDATE: ULTra PRT Heathrow Debut Postponed a Fourth Time.

U of M CTS Report:

Steve Raney, a principal with ATS ULTra, gave an overview of current PRT technology and discussed ULTra’s recently completed PRT project for London’s Heathrow airport.

The ULTra circulator runs on an elevated guideway to connect Heathrow’s new Terminal 5 to a remote parking lot. Its on-demand nature was particularly useful for this destination. “PRT was the only practical solution for (the British Airport Authority),” Raney said. “It had a 60 percent travel time savings and 40 percent operating costs savings” over other modes. Construction on the project is currently complete, with revenue service scheduled to begin this spring.

According to a presentation by Martin Lowson (available at the ATRA website) the new launch window is in "Mid 2010":



That would make it three times the debut of the glorified golf carts have been postponed. How many chances do these PRT guys get?

Public Transit had this comment after the second postponement:

It seems that the opening of the Ultra PRT system constructed at Heathrow Airport outside London, England, has been delayed again, by issues that remain unidentified.

During some intense debate earlier this year involving this website and the engineering team behind the Ultra PRT at Heathrow, it was stated that the system would open for revenue service in the "4th quarter" of 2009, e.g., sometime between October 1, 2009 and December 31, 2009.

In recent British press reports (for example, http://www.ultraprt.com/cms/index.php?page=the-london-science-museum-aug-09 ), the system now reportedly will open "sometime next year." To wit:

The bubble-shaped, driverless cars with black, bug-eyed windows are his solution to the problems of urban travel. He began working on the system in 1995 and NEXT YEAR [2010] they are due to start operating at Heathrow, carrying passengers from car parks to Terminal 5 [emphasis added].

So what gives? Did the concerns raised here a few months ago sink in, and perhaps produce more "due diligence." Of course, I'm not going to hold my breath for any explanation from Mr. Lowenson et al regarding up to another year of delay.

Also, displaying the Ultra PRT vehicles alongside Stephenson's Rocket is highly presumptuous until PRT is actually proven for several years in revenue service, which it still has to show.

Steve Raney had this to say after the first postponement,

"I've certainly been in situations where the people I'm communicating with really hate PRT."

Listen:

Would-Be PRT Vendors' Creepy Comments on Gays, Bicycling, Portland, Guns and Muslims

Jerry Roane at the Transportation Innovators forum on the ATRA website:

Sun, 2010/02/14 - 6:40am

I did some more study on why Portland has an affinity for little bicycles and why they resonate with Washington DC money givers. There seems to be a naked bike ride they do and they had the first openly homosexual (male on male) mayor. This money is being passed out to the constituents. It has very little to do with mobility. The naked bike ride looks more like a men's locker room than 800 randomly chosen citizens. Portland is not even a metropolitan city. It is in a metropolitan area but the city is only 1/2 million.

Jerry Roane

Jerry Roane is the "inventor" of the TriTrack PRT.

Roane Inventions Incorporated of Georgetown, Texas is one of the would-be PRT vendors listed on the City of San Jose website.

Also on that list is Jack Slade who has some creepy things to say on another topic in that same forum on the ATRA site:

Terrorism and Transportation Choice
Thu, 2010/02/04 - 12:00am

Dennis, we went through the whole buildup of aviation mostly in the years 1945 to 2000 without having to restrict firearms on aircraft.

During thise years, can you name me one problem that ever occurred, or one persin that was ever injured? If you can, it certainly did not ever get published in the aircraft accident and incident reports that I was reading constantly during that period.

Lesser of 2 evils....which would you prefer,(1) a trained, armed, passenger or (2) a terrorist who has total freedom to kill everybody on board? If you really want to put the fear of Allah into these terrorists, you should make it be known that ALL your bullets have been dipped in pig blood. All the Military bullets, too.

Jack Slade

Keep it klassy, PRT dudes!

PRT and the "Minnesota Drearies"

Transit Pulse, Vol. XXIV, No. 5 January/February 2007 (PDF)

Minnesota Drearies

The Santa Cruzans for Responsibly Planning (see page 2) started as a Citizens for PRT organization somewhat modeled after a group in Minnesota that started up in 1995. According to Dick Gronning of the Minnesota group, activities are dwindling and membership is down. The Minnesota Sierra Club and other environmental groups are pro-LRT, judging their Hiawatha Line as a great success and often dismissing PRT as a right-wing conspiracy.

Jeral Poskey has left Taxi 2000 and relocated back to the Silicon Valley. Taxi 2000 is busy but quite. Ed Anderson also remains quiet these days. A pro-PRT Republican legislator who bucked the Democrat landslide last month is in trouble over charges of domestic abuse.

Gronning thinks that Minnesotans, following their offshoot friends in Santa Cruz, should refocus on a multi-modal approach.

Uppsala Green Party and the Spårbilslobbyn (PRT Lobby)

Comment on article - "Decision on spårbilar (PRT) postponed" (Google translation):

Risk Project

Agree with previous writers in the trams and trolley buses are a better system of Uppsala. It needed an upgrade of the public transport system!

Unfortunately, this systematic delays of the PRT lobby with Niclas Malmberg at the forefront. Malmberg has damaged both the Green Party and Uppsala with his passion for an untested system that is now at risk of cold Swedish state of 700 million.

Friend of order to question whether it is right that the state pays a private company's development costs.

By: Eric Thärnström,

A blog post at YIMBY by Eric Thärnström (also Google translation):

The Green Party's Niclas Malmberg has long pursued the PRT in Uppsala. We have a test track from Vectus, we have received several suggestions on PRT in the media, and trace the taxi has now picked up in Floorplan 2010th Malmberg has also pushed for a full-scale test facility in Boländerna. But now, suddenly changing the MP side.

MP, in its opinion to the Master plan in 2010 chose to say no to the PRT, and we can thank the new President Mary Gardfjell for. The opposition makes common cause, and believe that PRT should certainly be tested but that there should be Uppsala's future public transport. Thus says the opposition Christian Democrats, together with definite no to the PRT, and definitely yes to the trams. Hopefully, it will accelerate efforts to upgrade the city's public transport when the choice of system is already clear.

In retrospect, one wonders what would have happened if the tram instead received the same attention as the taxi track. Trams are relatively uncontroversial and in discussions about how it would affect the urban environment is a lot to get in Uppsala's history. It is clear that we did not have a "decisions concerning the selection of systems" as late as the 2015th Now, instead of up to officials if we get an upgrade of public transport or not. It would not hurt if they were equally clear that the opposition is now.

By upgrading to the trams, we can hope for a denser urban construction in our existing neighborhoods so that we can improve services, access to quality green space and conditions for new and interesting meetings.

The post links to this video.

What's with the Greens and the Spårbilslobbyn?

Uppsala - "Decision on track cars (spårbilar) postponed"

Upsala Nya Tidning: Beslut om spårbilar sköts upp

Google Translation:

The decision on Uppsala's PRT effort was postponed by the Municipal Bureau on Monday.

The politicians wanted a clearer statement to the effect that the state should pay 100 percent of the investment cost. The letter of intent which the government requires the municipality to participate in a project could, in certain respects be interpreted as that the municipality would account for part of the financing, all parties agree, however, that the City of Uppsala to say yes to the PRT project. A decision is expected later this week.

From the Eskilstuna Courier (Google translation):

Eskilstuna is re-opening race for track cars (spårbilar)

Eskilstuna - If the government wants us to do a pilot municipality so they may well do so. But we have no own resources to stop in, "says Jimmy Jansson (S).

Eskilstuna Municipality would again take up the fight on a pioneering path to track cars. But the alliance, in addition to the Center Party, rejects the whole idea of rail cars in Eskilstuna.

Some time ago four municipalities singled out as potential candidates to become pioneers of the effort the PRT tracks.

Comments:

No, but stop now! Again comes the nonsense PRT debate up again as it has done occasionally in the last 10-15 years. Why have track cars at all? Requires an infrastructure that ugly urban environment, and it can not be trace on every street in town? No, instead favoring electric cars are starting to come now. Add money on parking spaces with charging socket for them instead!

---

Pure idiocy! Stop burning tax money on a bunch of shit that do not provide society anything.

---

But that's typical activists governing this municipality, ideas miles distant from reality and exorbitant fees for everything that may have the least connection to the environment. Is simply to take money into cover behind environmental issues, not to promote it.

---

On the municipal website, I found some time ago a paper with a proposal for spårbilsnät in Eskilstuna. There was a ring around the city center as well as a detour from the ring to Fristad Square. Can anyone imagine Fristad Square cluttered with bärpelare and bärbalkar both lengthwise and crosswise and one or more hanging platforms with associated lifts and other things. One or more technologies happy at the municipality can actually there. How divorced from reality may be responsible in the municipality.

Here is a visual from the proposal:

MN Senate Testimony About Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) in 2004

J. E. Anderson, February 17, 2004:



More clips here:



Watch complete video here.

Video: "Winona is pushing to become a part of the future of public transportation."

Video from WKBT.com.

The announcer says PRT is "...expected to be a $44 billion industry by 2020."

New Paper Critical of PRT for Winona, MN

From Michael Setty at PublicTransit.US:

OK, OK, we have spent way much more time on PRT than it really deserves, however...As a favor to the taxpayers of Winona, Minnesota, and for future cases of other municipalities suffering from the "Music Man" style of PRT salesmanship when it comes to town, we have posted a new paper debunking Personal Rapid Transit, "Professor" Harold Hill Pitches PRT to a River City on the Mississippi in Minnesota. Link is www.publictransit.us/PRTDebunked1-WINONA.pdf. Even though this paper has been available only since the morning of Sunday, December 20th, it has already created quite a stir among the PRT hoi-polloi.

This is an excellent paper.

This paper will join Personal Rapid Transit – Cyberspace Dream Keeps Colliding With Reality and the Central Loop OKI report, and Professor Vukan Vuchic's writings as essential reading for citizens, public officials and investors who have been approached by the PRT guys.

Editorial: "Space pods seem a little too far out "

Winona Daily News:

Last week, Winona learned of a plan by city leaders to court public funds and private investors in a collaborative effort to develop a model for personal rapid transit systems.

They’ve been dubbed “space pods,” because drawings of such a system depict streamlined bubbles on tracks that pass by not-too-distant-future type buildings.

For a moment, though, let’s pause on that thought — just drawings.

We only really have drawings of PRTs — and there’s a reason for that.

As Winona begins to explore and advocate for a $25 million model, which will not really serve the area’s own transit needs, there has never been a successful PRT system launched.

One system is slated for London’s Heathrow Airport, but right now, it’s still not functional.

Good editorial, read the whole thing.

Campaign to Protect Rural England Opposes Personal Rapid Transit

From the CPRE's paper (PDF) "Eco-towns: living a greener future - CPRE's response" that can be downloaded HERE:

an integrated approach to transport, across a district as a whole, should be taken to maximise potential for journeys to and from eco-towns to be made in a sustainable fashion, rather than relying on unproven technologies such as Personal Rapid Transit

Good advice... PRT-pie-in-the-sky-imaginary-solutions go nowhere as Daventry recently discovered.

Professor Vukan Vuchic:

Society for Nature Conservation in Uppsala - "PRT is not public transport"

Opinion piece in Swedish from the Upsala Nya Tidning.

Quotes using Google translator:

PRT is not public transport

Nothing is gained by giving Uppsala, a ceiling of track cars. Capacity is too low. Tram is the solution of Uppsala, writes Naturskyddsföreningens Marianne Kahn and Mats Andersson.

--snip--

But the track cars Uppsala to bet money on has nothing to do with public transport, because the capacity is too low.

--snip--

The solution for Uppsala are trams. In European countries is growing and tram networks in Sweden becomes increasingly concrete plans in many cities. Today's low-floor trams are comfortable, quiet and efficient. A tramway from the outer regions toward the center helps to reduce car use and improving the urban environment.

This is what the Swedish Wiki-pod-people want to do to the urban environment...